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      港"拒捐"1亿港元, 芦山地震灾民" 站不住脚的借口"

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      21
      Pyree 发表于 5-5-2013 18:34:46
      Yes, what you said is true. But you are cherry picking the worsts examples from democratic countries to make your points. You ignored the countries that are doing fine because a good government was elected. In contrast, there is no change of government in mainland China (or political agenda if you call replacing Hu, Wen with  Xi, Lee is a change of government ). Businessman are also party leader, they made policies to control the economy to benefit from it, is that good for the country? Do you really think the distribution of wealth will improve over time in China when the judicial system is not separate from the party and high ranking party officials corruption remain nonpunishable? They have power and take the money out of the country illegally, is that good for the economy? Putting a lid on political reform and implementing economic stop gap solutions to inflate the data will not solve the fundamental problem that will ultimately bring the Chinese economy down, because a sound economy is build upon a healthy political framework.
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      22
      观阴大师 发表于 5-5-2013 19:09:34
      所以说大选不代表就一定推动民主进步,改善人民生活,尤其是半调子空降的大选制度,阿富汗伊拉克都民主10年了,生活还不如战前

      澳洲我不认为选吉拉德或者反对党能产生多大的区别,同理其他的发达国家,比如美英德等,人民只能从2个人里面选一个,而且无论选哪一个,都差不多的

      决定社会进步的关键在于整个政务透明,公开,全面监督,健全完善的法制以及大部分人民的素质。大选只是政务里面一个很小的部分而已。

      就比如现在的香港比较廉政,监督舆论都能透明公开,法制也比较完善。有没有个大选都会是这样,不会有什么区别。有了大选反而更加有可能选出个阿扁那样只会操作选战,玩弄政治攻击,而拖垮经济,社会退步的港首。
      反正有老共这个特大号黑锅和靶子,啥问题都推老共上就行了。我要香港反对派,我也要去闹大选,哈哈
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      23
      Pyree 发表于 5-5-2013 19:24:10
      "特大号黑锅和靶子"
      Indeed. CCP is exactly as you put it.
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      24
      gratefulcai 发表于 5-5-2013 19:36:00
      "You ignored the countries that are doing fine because a good government was elected."
      能不能举几个例子来看看?
      "In contrast, there is no change of government in mainland China (or political agenda if you call replacing Hu, Wen with  Xi, Lee is a change of government ). "
      换政府真的这么重要吗?好似换政府了,什么都解决了。我认为土共现在的换届还是有进步意义的,至少和毛时期或北韩比显然是进步。我认为如果这样的形式能保持并逐步改善是走在正轨上的。不要忘了,中国历史上还未有过这样的换届形式。
      "Businessman are also party leader, they made policies to control the economy to benefit from it, is that good for the country?"
      朋友你在说美国吧?你觉得自由世界的领导者们都在为民服务??总统选举的政治献金难道都是99%给的?还不是1%出的,那你觉得拿人钱能不为人服务? 再有相信你知道美国的lobby group吧,。举个例子,美国枪支问题,就因为national rifle association代表了强大的武器商的利益,美国连个最简单的枪支管理法案都无法通过。这个是否可以解释为赚的钱都带着人命?!
      "Do you really think the distribution of wealth will improve over time in China when the judicial system is not separate from the party and high ranking party officials corruption remain nonpunishable? "
      这点我同意你的观点。法律系统应该独立。治理腐败是个难题,记住中国历来没有成功的案例。但民主选举未必是唯一答案,印度就是个典型。问题是每个国家环境和历史不同,政治制度不该有唯一的正确答案,只有什么是最适合这个国家的。而且这个要每个国家基于自己的历史和国情自己摸索发展出来,。中国照搬苏联的制度失败了,照搬西方的制度也失败了。现在的这个特色社会主义尽管有很多不足,但是还是有很多自己的东西在里面,而且是基于中国独有的国情。路要一步一步踏实地走,国家的发展也是如此。曾经我在国内也信仰过普世,民主这些,不过生活在澳洲多年,反而觉得这些真不一定是唯一的答案。
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      25
      Pyree 发表于 5-5-2013 21:44:18
      (1.) 能不能举几个例子来看看?
      Germany, South Korea, Canada.

      (2.) 换政府真的这么重要吗?好似换政府了,什么都解决了。我认为土共现在的换届还是有进步意义的
      They made progress, but China really need to get its act together on stopping corruption. Currently, the party controls the judicial system and that's why fighting corruption is ineffective. The separation of the judicial system from the party is a hurdle that CCP can't jump through. Because that implies there will be separation of powers. The judicial system and law enforcement they are together. Do you think the central government will allow their tool to spy, control and imprison people to be out of their direct control? I think not. They are locking up people just because they have different political view and they have good views too. But because they are different, CCP lock them up. They need the judicial system and law enforcement to work for the party. The judicial system and law enforcement is the party's hitman and jailer. Therefore, there will never be separation of power if CCP is to remain in power in China. Hence, a change of government is required.

      (3.) 你觉得自由世界的领导者们都在为民服务?
      Well, I support NBN, the mining tax and carbon tax and they are here now, so someone is doing something. I know the MP gain a lot for doing their job, but they need to win voter's vote so they have to do something. I am sure buying a seat into the CCP central government with money or because their are "prince", they are almost certainly not going to serve or even answer the people on day one.

      (4.) 治理腐败是个难题,记住中国历来没有成功的案例。但民主选举未必是唯一答案,印度就是个典型。
      OK, don't follow the West. How about learn something from the brothers across the sea and learn from Taiwan. They are doing well in fighting corruption. They definitely share a lot of similarity with mainland China in 1949 and look at where they are now. Don't give me the "big country with a lot of people crap" because it is a large country, it also have a lot of people, and a lot of people working to make progress, it would cancel each other out. During the cultural revolution, there is a rapid, widespread and systematic persecution of certain type of people in China. It just demonstrate if CCP wants to do something, they can. Yet, they are not using that for something good, like a reform. And no, don't say they are having a reform. They are only scratching the surface. The root of the problem, like I said in (2), remains unaddressed.
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      26
      观阴大师 发表于 5-5-2013 22:28:52
      唉,还在纠结这个问题。。。。

      这就跟在讨论是吃米饭的容易蛀牙还是吃面条的容易蛀牙,然后举一堆例子谁谁谁吃米饭有蛀牙,谁谁谁吃面条没蛀牙一样幼稚

      因为蛀牙的原因在于是否刷牙是否坚持天天用比较好的牙膏刷牙,而不是吃米饭或者吃面条的缘故

      这样的解释要是还不明白就真没辙了
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      27
       楼主| MicMic 发表于 5-5-2013 22:45:06
      观阴大师 发表于 2013-5-5 22:58
      唉,还在纠结这个问题。。。。

      这就跟在讨论是吃米饭的容易蛀牙还是吃面条的容易蛀牙,然后举一堆例子谁 ...

      大师來結淪.........
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      28
      gratefulcai 发表于 5-5-2013 22:55:18
      Pyree,
      回复你的1,2,4点:说了这么多,无非是土共滚蛋换政府,但是,实际点,换谁呢?民运吗?
      土共纵有很多缺点,犯过很多历史错误,但过去的三十年内成绩也有目共睹,现在世界上貌似还没有找到哪个政府能做到土共的成绩。你说得好像换个政府问题就都解决了。有点新意好不好?
      “ learn from Taiwan. They are doing well in fighting corruption. ”
      要说台湾反腐,你开玩笑啊?阿扁为何还在牢里啊?
      “Don't give me the "big country with a lot of people crap"”
      这个绝对不是crap. 人口对一个国家绝对是重要的影响因素。澳洲人口要是翻个倍很多事就绝对不一样。
      “Well, I support NBN, the mining tax and carbon tax and they are here now, so someone is doing something.”
      记得工党上台时,陆克文的竞选口号是“CHANGE”,这么多年,改了什么?物价年年涨,福利越来越少。他自己都被党内政变搞下去了。
      “I am sure buying a seat into the CCP central government with money ”
      没听说目前哪个国内高层是花钱买来的,不过美国上至总统竞选,下至议员竞选可都是合法拉赞助的哦!这个怎么解释呢?
      because their are "prince", they are almost certainly not going to serve or even answer the people on day one.
      这个叫“princeling”,但不能一概而论。很多高层领导人的治国经验相信比你我丰富。不觉得他们肯定就不向民意负责。不然国内早乱了,文革就是个见证。你不能无视文革后中国政治文化的变革,结束领导人终身制,结束个人崇拜,对外开放,领导层十年一届轮换等,都是某种意义上对应民意的体现。
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      29
      gratefulcai 发表于 5-5-2013 23:08:01
      观阴大师 发表于 2013-5-5 21:58
      唉,还在纠结这个问题。。。。

      这就跟在讨论是吃米饭的容易蛀牙还是吃面条的容易蛀牙,然后举一堆例子谁 ...

      哈哈!精辟!结束讨论。。。
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      30
      Pyree 发表于 5-5-2013 23:21:37
      你说得好像换个政府问题就都解决了。有点新意好不好?
      OK, then how would you solve the problem of corruption without seperation of powers that will ultimately end CCP rule. Give me some new idea.
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